Interview with Édith Canat de Chizy and Blanca Li

Reading time: 12 mn
by Hugues Le Tanneur

In L'Ombre, inspired by a fairy tale by Hans Christian Andersen, Édith Canat de Chizy and Blanca Li join forces to create an immersive performance combining music, dance, video, electronics, and artificial intelligence.

The composer Édith Canat de Chizy (© Christophe Daguet) and the choreographer Blanca Li

Édith Canat de Chizy: My husband, a filmmaker and musicologist, introduced me to this Andersen fairy tale. He said, "You should do something with this—it’s wonderful." When I read it, I immediately heard music, something I could compose for percussion, with Florent Jodelet in mind. But just as quickly, I saw its choreographic potential. At first, I imagined two dancers, reflecting the dynamic between the character and his shadow. Blanca Li came to mind right away, as we had already worked together in the past. When we discussed the project, she immediately brought up virtual reality, which opened up entirely new possibilities. If the scientist represents the real world and the shadow the virtual, then by working with light and video, we could create an intricate interplay between the two.

Blanca Li: When I first discovered this text, I immediately saw a parallel with the rise of artificial intelligence. We’ve created something that expands our abilities and amplifies our control over reality—yet at the same time, this very invention threatens to surpass and dominate us in the near future. It’s astonishing how perfectly this tale aligns with a pressing contemporary issue: what we have shaped is on the verge of becoming autonomous, self-generating, and increasingly powerful.

Already, when we perform certain actions online, we’re asked to prove that we are not robots. But soon, artificial intelligence will be advanced enough to bypass these tests. What happens when we can no longer prove our own humanity? It’s precisely because this story resonates so strongly today that it makes sense to tell it using cutting-edge technologies—whether through electroacoustics, artificial intelligence, or other digital tools—integrating them at every level, from the music to the staging. Being at IRCAM is particularly exciting in this context, as it allows us to tap into its vast resources and explore new creative possibilities while navigating these profound shifts in our world.

Édith Canat de Chizy: This is the third performance I've presented with IRCAM. I first worked with strings, then with voices, and this time, knowing Florent Jodelet well, I wanted to explore percussion. I found it particularly interesting to integrate electronics into the piece, especially considering the presence of dancers in the performance. There’s a strong interplay between the virtual and the real, which also extends to the visual elements—Florent Jodelet will be filmed so that he, too, becomes part of the imagery. As for the relationship between percussion and electronics, the percussion itself undergoes little transformation. However, since there is only one musician navigating between different percussion instruments and mallets, multiple tracks are layered. The electronics enhance these layers, playing a crucial role in spatializing the sound, rather than altering it.

Blanca Li: From the very beginning, I knew I didn’t want to create an ordinary show. I envisioned an installation—an experience where the audience wouldn’t just sit and watch dancers and musicians, but actively engage with the space. The idea of using virtual reality came later. I thought it would be fascinating to challenge the audience with an augmented reality experience. I had recently encountered several experiments in mixed and augmented reality—technologies that had only emerged a few years ago. This show is truly pioneering because we’re inventing everything as we go along, without knowing in advance what the final result will be. It’s a complex, research-driven process where we’re constantly testing and exploring what is possible, discovering the potential step by step.

Édith Canat de Chizy: First, we wrote a script together, keeping in mind that the show must last one hour. Then we divided it scene by scene. Afterwards, Blanca wrote a second script with suggestions for each scene, and we ended up with nine parts of 7 minutes each. I composed the music for each scene using a metronome. Working with electronics is very delicate because everything must be meticulously planned—I made a detailed plan, imagining precisely where each sound should go. Since we had already recorded the percussion, we knew all the possible transformations. The challenge with percussion lies in the number of instruments involved. Initially, I was captivated by the instruments Florent suggested and ended up choosing too many, which wasn’t technically feasible due to space limitations. You have to ensure that the performance lasts an hour with the same instruments, so you must find combinations that can change the atmosphere over time. That’s where the electronics come in, to vary the sounds. In short, you need to make specific choices while maintaining continuity throughout the show. Additionally, we’re testing a xylophone synthesizer that can record various timbres—skins, woodwinds, and so on—so instead of using a multitude of instruments, we consolidate everything onto one synthesizer.
 
Blanca Li: Each scene is defined by its own aesthetic. Every sequence in the show is laid out in a detailed script accompanied by images, which serves as a reference for everyone involved. Naturally, this plan evolves in tandem with our technological advancements, adapting to what is feasible at each stage. In the performance, between eight and ten dancers appear live alongside a percussionist. Sometimes, a dancer is followed by his real shadow; at other times, his shadow is a pre-filmed projection; and occasionally, it materializes as augmented reality. In other words, we work with three distinct levels of shadows—a remarkably complex feat.

Sometimes, the dancers themselves are rendered virtually, while a live performer takes on the role of the shadow. This inversion shifts the interpretation of the character, adding yet another layer of complexity to the performance.

That's why the dramaturgy evolves alongside our technological work. We run tests as we go to see what works, gradually building something with the tools at our disposal. In this show, I'm not telling a straightforward narrative; instead, the aim is to imagine sub-universes inspired by the original story. While Andersen's fairy tale serves as our muse, we aren't retelling it.

Édith Canat de Chizy: That difference in timing between composition and choreography often creates a challenge in collaborations between composers and choreographers. For Corazón Loco, the first show Blanca and I created together, our process was quite different. We started with a series of improvisations—both with singers and dancers—based on a script Blanca had written. We developed different ways of working: I guided the singers, and Blanca worked with the dancers. We had several sessions, which we filmed, and then I composed the music based on what we had explored. So in that case, the collaboration was truly integrated from the very beginning.

Blanca Li: In this case, working through improvisation wasn't an option, so we had to rely on a continuous back-and-forth process. This was partly because the project was already quite advanced, but mainly due to the necessary research and development of the technology beforehand. Until the technological tools required for the show were fully developed, I couldn’t begin choreographing. It’s really a matter of methodology.

Blanca Li: We are immersed in a fantastical, highly abstract, and symbolic world that conveys emotions.

Édith Canat de Chizy: Initially, we considered using voice-overs, but it felt too "academic." Instead, the audience is fully immersed in the experience through the spatialization of sound, which plays a crucial role, and through the glasses that alter their perception of the events unfolding around them. This is an immersive performance where sounds move through space. I find this incredibly beautiful—it’s as if we are speaking directly into the audience’s ears. I love the idea of a show where there is no barrier between the audience and the performers.

Blanca Li: That’s why we’ve recorded various sound materials—small sound effects, voices, and ambient sounds—that the audience hears through the glasses, which are equipped with headphones that, importantly, do not cover the ears. This is a performance where the audience moves around freely, experiencing the piece from different perspectives. The show unfolds all around them. Even though they are looking through the glasses, there are still real dancers and a live musician physically present on stage.

Édith Canat de Chizy: This highlights the importance of the percussionist’s gesture. That’s why we filmed him in advance and integrated this film into the visuals. Once again, the virtual merges with the real—the percussionist will be both on stage and projected in the imagery. This approach allows the instrumentalist’s movements to take center stage, complementing the dancers’ choreography. For example, Florent has crafted these striking, powerful sound tubes himself. When the act of striking them is extended into the virtual realm, it takes on an entirely new dimension.

Blanca Li: In some ways, in this show, you can actually see the music.